It's not about PIs, but about mana drainers, although many of them are also PI. I guess Thomh wants to know if damage to mana is applied before or after the manadrain from an attack. I'm not sure about that, I admit.
It should be after the attack, in that the mana is first drained and the non-mana-burn damage is also first resolved. My understanding is that DTM is determined afterwards.
I guess what I meant is that the damage done by the mana burn itself won't count towards the mana you regain back from the DTM, since only damage done to your health be factored in.|||We`re trying to figure out the optimal setup for a WW-barb as a pit runner over at the Single Player Forum, so that`s the motvitation for the question.
We`re basically wondering whether Damage goes to Mana will help against Mana Burning Bone Warriors in the Pits. They can`t be Physical Immune, but since they`re unleechable they can be quite annoying and will be a major speed bumb when trying to run as fast as we can.
From Orphan`s answer it seems like it would help quite a bit with DGTM in this case (If I understand correctly, not exactly a given
). Damage is applied and then resolved, resulting in empty mana bulb because of Mana Burn...Then DGTM is applied and resolved giving my poor barb back some much needed mana. Hopefully I got that one right now.And now for a follow-up question: How much mana will be returned if we use some DR% gear. Will 50% Damage Reduction reduce the amount of mana returned by 50%. It seems so, but better get it confirmed.
Thanks to both of you for the answers, btw. Much appreciated!|||Quote:
From Orphan`s answer it seems like it would help quite a bit with DGTM in this case (If I understand correctly, not exactly a given
). Damage is applied and then resolved, resulting in empty mana bulb because of Mana Burn...Then DGTM is applied and resolved giving my poor barb back some much needed mana. Hopefully I got that one right now.That is my understanding yes, based on how I interpret the attack resolution in D2. In a controlled test it should be pretty easy to determine if need be by switching between DTM gear and not against a mana burn creature which deals enough damage to empty your mana completely.
As I mentioned above though, the creature would need to deal some physical component of the attack as well in order to gain any benefit from DTM. For example, Baal's little mana draining inferno type attack wouldn't be as useful in this scenario as a minotaur type unique with the mana burn attribute.
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And now for a follow-up question: How much mana will be returned if we use some DR% gear. Will 50% Damage Reduction reduce the amount of mana returned by 50%. It seems so, but better get it confirmed.
Yes. DTM is based on how much damage you actually take, not how much the enemy normally hits for. For example, if a creature hits for 100 physical damage, but you have 50% DR, then they'll instead only do 50 physical damage to you. In turn, if you have 10% DTM then you'll take 50 damage, and gain 5 mana.|||Damage taken goes to Mana is applied before percent absorb, integer absorb and mana damage from mana burn. It can be of some use against ranged mana burn (with high maximum mana and high percentage DTGM) but will be useless against melee mana burn due to a bug that increases the mana damage from melee attacks by 256 times.|||As Victus has pointed out, % Damage Taken to Mana returns mana before mana damage, so it's not that useful when dealing with Mana Burn Unique monsters (and their minions in Nightmare and Hell).
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Damage Taken goes to Mana only works for the physical damage that your health has taken damage for, not the damage your mana has absorbed. This is similar to the DTM vs Energy Shield process.
% DTGM applies to all damage types (physical, magic, fire, lightning, cold and first frame poison) applied to life which are calculated using MonLvl.txt values (so that's source damage from MonStats.txt, and damage added by Unique and Champion bonuses). Although this applies intuitively to physical damage melee and missile attacks (using a visible arrow, bolt, dart, javelin, quill or throwing weapon), it also applies to the following:
Tainted lightning orbs
Skeleton Mage bolts
Lightning Spire bolts
Willowisp lightning bolts
Demon Imp fire bolts
Claw Viper missiles
Succubus and Stygian Fury bolts
% DTGM is applied after Energy Shield's mana loss, though.
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We`re basically wondering whether Damage goes to Mana will help against Mana Burning Bone Warriors in the Pits. They can`t be Physical Immune, but since they`re unleechable they can be quite annoying and will be a major speed bumb when trying to run as fast as we can.
Mana Burn Unique Bone Warriors in the Pits should apply 66-100 mana damage before the Resist -100% penalty in Hell doubles this to 132-200... but due to the bug this gets multiplied by 256 when applied by a melee attack, resulting in 33,792-51,200 final mana damage (minions apply 'just' 16,896-25,600). Fortunately this doesn't get doubled by a critical hit, otherwise it might be a bit too much...
% DTGM would help if you were attacked by other monsters after being mana burned, but it's no help whatsoever if you're dealing with a MB Unique Bone Warrior and its minions in isolation: every hit will burn your mana completely (unlike the innate mana damage of Wraiths and Willowisps, which isn't applied by 100% of hits) after mana returned by % DTGM.
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As I mentioned above though, the creature would need to deal some physical component of the attack as well in order to gain any benefit from DTM. For example, Baal's little mana draining inferno type attack wouldn't be as useful in this scenario as a minotaur type unique with the mana burn attribute.
Baal's inferno reduces current mana by 50% on each collision: stationary players can be hit by up to three missiles, reducing their current mana to approximately 1/8. This percentage mana drain is applied before ES, so ES obviously doesn't apply to it (neither do Resist % difficulty level penalties or critical hits). The accompanying magic damage is calculated using Skills.txt values, so as you implied % DTGM doesn't apply at all.
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Damage taken goes to Mana is applied before percent absorb, integer absorb and mana damage from mana burn.
% DTGM is calculated based on final damage after Absorb has reduced it, but life returned isn't taken into account (so even if Absorb results in healing, some mana will be returned as long as damage would have been applied without the healing).
This is admittedly a little odd, since life is returned by Absorb before damage is applied when calculating life loss (at maximum life no life is returned and damage is simply reduced by Absorb, and you can survive damage that would kill you if life were returned after damage had been applied).|||Just to put some empirical evidence to the table as I was wondering the same as well, due to the mana intensity of WW.
My trav barb is currently wearing Carrion Wind for the DTGM. When he is hit by a MB monster, the blue bulb is depleted. Only on sub-sequent hit from a non-MB monster he get some mana back.|||Quote:
Mana Burn Unique Bone Warriors in the Pits should apply 66-100 mana damage before the Resist -100% penalty in Hell doubles this to 132-200... but due to the bug this gets multiplied by 256 when applied by a melee attack, resulting in 33,792-51,200 final mana damage (minions apply 'just' 16,896-25,600). Fortunately this doesn't get doubled by a critical hit, otherwise it might be a bit too much...
% DTGM would help if you were attacked by other monsters after being mana burned, but it's no help whatsoever if you're dealing with a MB Unique Bone Warrior and its minions in isolation: every hit will burn your mana completely (unlike the innate mana damage of Wraiths and Willowisps, which isn't applied by 100% of hits) after mana returned by % DTGM.
This sounds as if you are saying that DGTM is applied before or together with a mana-burning attack which also deals damage, else you wouldn't compare the mana burn/gain numbers, correct?
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Baal's inferno reduces current mana by 50% on each collision: stationary players can be hit by up to three missiles, reducing their current mana to approximately 1/8.
Baal's mana burn breath can put you at 0 mana if you receive the full brunt of it. I'm pretty sure about that, it happens to my zealot all the time, forcing him to switch from smite to zeal for a time. Perhaps it leaves 1/8 of the *maximum* amount of mana, so it you have already used up 1/8, you would be at 0 indeed.
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